The Long Term Investor

Discussion in 'Investing' started by WXYZ, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. zukodany

    zukodany Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,644
    Likes Received:
    1,208
    Man I remember that all these losses for the year happened in 1 session last year... TWICE! NYSE hit the reset switch a couple of times that year.... it was a DISASTER! The panic and fear were monstrous!
    Let’s see where this baby correction leads us this year
     
  2. oldmanram

    oldmanram Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2021
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    345
    Nice rebound today !
    I was just thinking of fiddling with my stocks , rotating away (a little) from tech to some dow30 companies. (large cap like W)
    But I waited tooo long,
    Today
    My individual stocks UP 3.25%
    My ETF's UP 1.86%
    Total Portfolio UP 2.50%
    Beat All the indexes today, a four star day

    I was listening to the radio today and they mentioned that as far as the jobs report and unemployment, one thing to consider is that
    right now the industries needing more employees does not line up with the unemployed people in our country.
    They said the industries hiring are construction, manufacturing etc and that a lot of the unemployed are in the service industry.
    or hospitality, that have not quite rebounded as quickly.
     
    #4202 oldmanram, Mar 5, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  3. oldmanram

    oldmanram Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2021
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    345
    And yes my high was February 12th as well ,
    something to look forward to is March 23rd , that was my low water mark last year.
    I look forward to checking my 1 year change in value on that date.
     
  4. oldmanram

    oldmanram Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2021
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    345
    I would do as suggested previously, find out what the symbol is for each mutual fund , then look at the funds
    performance 1yr 3yr 5yr
    Sector that it is in
    Some sites let you compare that fund against others in the same sector
    Holdings that it has and the weight of those holdings (percentage of the total fund)
    See if there have been any management changes recently

    Most funds that they buy are re-balanced about once a year. Bit it would depend on the fund itself , how active the managers of the fund are.
    But quarterly at most
    Enjoy the weekend , but not to much it looks like you have homework. :)
     
  5. gtrudeau88

    gtrudeau88 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2020
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    266
    Did even better than I thought. :banana:up 1.68% for the day, up .54% for the week, up 3.48% YTD. 27.5% of the gain today came from NVAX. GTN and DIS also were up substantially

    Updated to reflect a little drop at end of post-market
     
    #4205 gtrudeau88, Mar 5, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
  6. oldmanram

    oldmanram Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2021
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    345
    WELL DONE ! :thumbsup::thumbsup:
    CHEERS !!:popcorn:

    But don't forget you have homework on your IRA this weekend :horse:
     
  7. gtrudeau88

    gtrudeau88 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2020
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    266
    Yup. Might start it tonight!
     
  8. WXYZ

    WXYZ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2018
    Messages:
    14,557
    Likes Received:
    4,930
    WELL......since it is the weekend...here is a little article that reflects many of the simple concepts that I try to follow in my investing. These are PROVEN concepts.....but....many of them are very difficult for investors to actually follow....due to the human brain.

    Should I Invest When The Market Is High? Dispelling The Buy Low, Sell High Myth

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristi...g-the-buy-low-sell-high-myth/?sh=6c573ee95376

    (BOLD is my opinion OR what I consider important content)

    "Most investors realize trying to time the market by always buying low and selling high isn't a realistic endeavor. Yet even with that knowledge, if you have a substantial amount of cash to invest, the thought of investing when the stock market is hovering near all-time highs may give you pause. Similarly, when facing the opportunity to 'buy the dip' (remember March 2020?), few investors have the stomach to do so.

    As reasonable as these examples may sound, they both describe aspects of market timing. Despite the recent pullback in the U.S. stock market, the S&P 500 has already set 10 new record highs in 2021 and coming off two very strong years. So what should you do if you have cash to invest and the market is strong?

    Should I invest when the market is high?
    Sitting in cash just because the S&P 500 is setting new highs is a mistake on several levels. First, when investing, it's critical to make decisions based on long-term expectations, not short-term market moves. Second, past performance is not indicative of future results. Setting new highs doesn't necessarily mean the market has peaked and a correction is imminent, just as a pause during a sharp selloff doesn't mean there's not still further to fall.

    Further, historical data does not support the idea that investing cash when the market is high is likely to produce lower future returns. In fact, according to J.P. Morgan, investing on days where the S&P 500 closed at a new all-time high can actually produce better returns than investing on a day where the market didn't set a new record.

    Investing at new highs...
    [​IMG]
    Is it worth investing at all-time highs?

    J.P. Morgan


    ...versus buying the dip
    Investors might be surprised to learn that the 5-year cumulative returns after declines in the stock market (buying the dip) are lower than the cumulative 5-year return after the market sets new highs.

    [​IMG]
    Investing after a decline in the stock market.

    Dimensional Fund Advisors
    Source: Dimensional Fund Advisors²

    This isn't an apples-to-apples comparison as the Fama/French Total US Stock Market Index is an expanded representation of the entire US equity market and the chart below is over a much longer time period. However, since the S&P 500 generally represents 80%-85% of the whole US stock market, it's still a helpful basis for comparison.

    Market timing doesn't work because there's no telling what markets will do
    Covid-19 selloff and subsequent rebound

    In 2019, the S&P 500 was up nearly 31.5% on a total return basis. That's over three times the average annualized return for the index since 1926. Nowhere to go but down in 2020, right? Wrong. Despite the Covid-19 pandemic, the S&P 500 was off to a strong start in early 2020. After peaking on February 19th, stocks began to fall sharply and would eventually bottom on March 23rd, down about -30% on the year including dividends. Yet by the end of 2020, the S&P 500 had set 33 new record highs, finishing the year with an 18.4% total return.

    Over the course of two years, the index returned over 55% cumulatively. If you bought stocks at the February 19th peak, it would take you until August 10th to break even (the S&P 500 hit a new all-time high on August 18th) and you'd be up nearly 13% by the end of the year.

    The 2008 financial crisis

    The markets don't typically recover as quickly as they did in 2020. The S&P 500 peaked October 11th, 2007 before the Great Financial Crisis. If you invested in the index at the high, it would take nearly four and a half years to recoup your losses and another year before the S&P 500 would hit another new high in April 2013. Your cumulative return during this five-and-a-half-year span would be 14%.

    Investing is about time in the market, not timing the market
    Unless you have a crystal ball, there's no way to predict how the market may move in the short term. But historical data can provide helpful context to set a range of likely outcomes for the future. It's called mean reversion.

    Using this long-term lens, there are 3 important factors to keep in mind when investing in the financial markets.

    1. History shows as the number of years you stay invested increases, the risk of losing money decreases.
    This is why we call it long-term investing. As the examples above illustrate, over time, the stock market has trended upward over the last 95 years. However, over the span of several months to years, anything can happen. Regardless of whether you invest when the market is high or low, you shouldn't pay too much attention to your returns in the short-term.

    [​IMG]
    As the number of years you stay invested increases, the risk of losing money decreases.

    BlackRock
    Sources: BlackRock; Morningstar. US Stocks represented by S&P 500 and the IA SBBI US Large Cap Index. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. This is for illustrative purposes only and not indicative of any investment. It is not possible to invest directly in an index.

    2. In the last 20 years, 70% of the best days in the market happened within 14 days of the worst ones.
    You can't get one without the other. But if you try to time it, it can cost you dearly. So if you're afraid to invest because the market is up or down, consider the cost of missing the best days. Deciding whether or not it's a good time to invest shouldn't have much to do with recent market conditions.

    [​IMG]
    The best days in the stock market often occur right after the worst days.

    J.P. Morgan
    Source: J.P. Morgan. Returns are based on the S&P 500 Total Return Index. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. This is for illustrative purposes only and not indicative of any investment. It is not possible to invest directly in an index.

    3. What's the alternative? Bonds and cash aren't investments for growth.
    If you're concerned about stock valuations and are hesitant to invest, what options do you have to put cash to work? Interest rates have been falling for decades, which has hurt bond returns. Rates on savings accounts are minimal, so staying in cash often means missing out. And keep in mind - many stocks pay dividends. The income can help offset losses when stock prices fall.

    Also consider if the market doesn't fall as fast or sharp as you're predicting. How much time will you let pass before investing? The risk is that you've missed out on growth and end up investing cash when valuations are even higher.

    [​IMG]
    Interest rates have been falling for decades, which has hurt bond returns.

    BlackRock
    Source: BlackRock

    Ways to reduce the risk of investing at the 'wrong' time
    Dollar-cost averaging
    Whether investing during a recession or high-flying stock market, dollar-cost averaging can be an effective way to reduce the risk—and fear—of investing at the wrong time. Unlike trying to time the market, with dollar-cost averaging, you invest at predetermined intervals, regardless of whether the market is high (or low) on that particular day.

    In personal finance, it's not always about what makes sense on paper. Managing the emotional response (e.g. sleeping at night) is a valid concern, though not without limit. Dollar-cost averaging can be an effective strategy in volatile markets or when you have a large amount of cash to invest. Just make sure you set your investment plan in advance and stick to it.

    Think outside the S&P 500
    Diversify, diversify, diversify! The above examples focus on the S&P 500 because it's familiar for investors. But that doesn't mean it's all you should consider investing in. Diversification is the cornerstone of any risk-adjusted strategy to build and protect your assets. This includes thinking outside of the S&P 500. Here's why.

    Asset classes act differently over time and in various market conditions. The risk-reward framework will also vary, as will current valuations. For example, J.P. Morgan reports that the forward price-to-earnings ratio on March 1, 2021 for the S&P 500 was 42% higher than its 20-year average, versus the All Country World Index (ex-US) at 24% higher. Put another way, most equities are expensive on a historical basis right now, but international stocks are less so.

    Investing across asset classes (such as stocks and bonds) and within them (such as mid and large cap equity) is key to reducing volatility and asset correlation in your portfolio. It also helps investors reduce the risk of investing a lump sum in the market at once, as asset classes will generally be performing differently at the time of investment.

    There are many other factors to consider when choosing what to invest in, but the point is that the S&P 500 isn't the only option. To illustrate how asset classes perform over time and the relative volatility, consider the graph below which shows total returns from 2005 - 2020.

    The chart plots the U.S. stock market (S&P 500), U.S. bonds (Bloomberg Barclays Aggregate U.S. bond index), and global equities (MSCI ACWI ex-U.S.) and emerging market equities (MSCI Emerging Markets).

    [​IMG]
    Returns and volatility of different asset classes over time.

    Darrow Wealth Management; YCharts


    Focus on what you can control
    You can't control the stock market. But you can control how you invest in it and what you do during downturns. A high savings rate, staying invested, and sticking with the plan are critical parts of building and protecting wealth over the long term. Trying to time the market by waiting in cash hoping for a downturn is like leaving your financial future up to chance."

    MY COMMENT

    Some good general material above and some nice illustrations. Many of the charts and graphs above illustrate data that your BRAIN would tell you can not be true.....yet it is. A starting point for anyone trying to decide how and when to invest. The PRIMARY factor is what will allow EACH investor to be comfortable and stay invested for the long term.
     
    Dkrstic69 likes this.
  9. Dax Martinez

    Dax Martinez Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2021
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    38
    I went all in on Amazon today
     
  10. oldmanram

    oldmanram Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2021
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    345
    Thank You for the report WXYZ , Good Info there !!
    I'm a proponent of the dollar averaging approach , it takes cahones to go "ALL IN"
    I prefer the 80% in, then wait with the other 20% for a dip or , but ya , I know I'm missing out on potential gains
    Just chicken I guess , Even last March , I still had some money leftover after a buying spree from March 15th? to March 25th? or there abouts
    But I did pick up MU , INTC, and another stock
    Appreciate it , but I did find the FAMA/FRENCH a little hard to follow ,
    Maybe it's because I'm at the end of the day , LONG ONE
    I'll re-read in the morning
     
  11. andyvds

    andyvds Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    120
    We all know stock prices go up and down. Growth stock are even more volatile. If stock goes down fast - it's not nice, I try to keep my cool and go back to work.
    My mother (91) has been investing in stock for over 40 years now. Some did well (Shell, Heineken) some not (Nokia). And 2020 was not a good year for Shell too. In 2019 I got some stock from her.
    Last weekend I showed my daughter (20) my portfolio (she will get 25% in some years, the rest later) and told her: some stock might do well, some not. Just do not sell them. Then I showed her what Excel calculated in 20-40 years with different scenarios - 5%, 10%, 15%, 20% p/a.
    You never know the future - and it's better that way. Look at Apple stock in 1997, in 2010 and in 2020.
    Have a nice weekend.
     
    #4211 andyvds, Mar 6, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
  12. gtrudeau88

    gtrudeau88 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2020
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    266
    One way to mitigate risk is to buy preferred stock versus common stock. I don't care about having voting rights and preferred stock allows one to invest in something that might be risky but with potentially big gains, all while having some protection in case the invested company fails.

    CSSEP and QTS-A are the two preferred stocks i own, paying 9% and 7% almost in dividends respectively.
     
  13. gtrudeau88

    gtrudeau88 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2020
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    266
    I am fully invested but I do try to buy on dips, even mini-dips, when increasing a position. if position x is down a little, why not buy more?
     
  14. gtrudeau88

    gtrudeau88 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2020
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    266
    I laughed when I reread this. I'm still learning and have made mistakes but I learn from them. I get 200 a month in dividends which I invest right away, I'm ahead 11% since I started, ahead almost 3.5% ytd. Many trades, too many, lost but I've had big gains too. I've done ok, I'm improving, and I am happy.
     
    #4214 gtrudeau88, Mar 6, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
  15. WXYZ

    WXYZ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2018
    Messages:
    14,557
    Likes Received:
    4,930
    WAY TO GO......andyvds going over your account with your daughter. One of the best things you can do for your kids is give them education in money, finances, investing, etc, etc. It GREATLY increases their chances of success in life. It ALSO greatly increases the chances that they will pass the same information and habits of successful people on to your Grandchildren.
     
  16. Rustic1

    Rustic1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2021
    Messages:
    1,143
    Likes Received:
    445

    You are unknowingly one of my students young jedi. Reverse psychology 101. Harness your anger towards me into the power of better achieving your goals. By rubbing your face into the mistakes you have made I have achieved my goals.

    Even ole X has done the about face from 3 weeks ago.

    Learn not to burn.
     
  17. zukodany

    zukodany Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,644
    Likes Received:
    1,208
    I think when it comes to buying GOOD companies and investing for the long term - one component we can all agree on is deciding on valuation.
    What does valuation means? That the company is at a reasonable buying point.
    That usually translate to - BUYING LOW.
    But let’s even call it - buy on a plain level. The reason why it’s a necessary study for investors is because once you established that you like the company and you want to get in - its valuation is taken into consideration to minimise risk and GAIN THE MOST
    The same thought can be applied to buying dips.
    My wife likes to buy things for the house like appliances, Tupperware and the likes whenever she need it.... I always tell her but honey let’s just wait till we get them on sale, BECAUSE WE KNOW they will be on sale at Costco and the likes a couple times a year.
    She tells me Zuk! Don’t be cheap! We can afford to buy it AND all the time that we use it will be WORTH it instead of not using it while waiting for the sale. That’s an argument you can’t win- on the one hand she’s right - we get more usage out of it. But in the other hand- we get to go through it a lot quicker.
    I adapt (almost) the same concept to my investing method; I already KNOW that I will add more to my companies - EVERYBODY HERE DOES- and I already KNOW that they will go “on sale” a couple of times a year- whether it’s a correction or simply that company losing on valuation independently of the market - that’s a great time to buy for me and I will ALWAYS make more money that way... like.... ALOT more!
    Who cares if the market tanks- if I had 10k at the beginning of the year and I wanted to allocate those funds to position X, I can just wait till they go on sale, the SAFEST way to buy them on sale is when the market actually dips, not when it puts a bad report or involved in some market scandal. That is UNLESS you are NOT a long term investor and believe that a correction will KILL your entire investments.
    When you “time” the market in such fashion that STILL doesn’t guarantee you will find the bottom, in fact, more times than not, you will buy it at a low point which it was just several weeks or months ago but MISSED OUT on that opportunity. No. You will never be able to time the market - with precision- but you certainly will save more money on your investment for the long term by waiting for a sale, because eventually it will come!
     
    gtrudeau88 and WXYZ like this.
  18. WXYZ

    WXYZ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2018
    Messages:
    14,557
    Likes Received:
    4,930
    So.....this being the weekend....I am going to discuss some investing alternatives.....collectables/hard assets. ROLEX WATCHES. I am not a watch person....... but...... I do find the financial aspects of this stuff interesting.

    I have been reading some of the watch forums online lately. The world of ROLEX is very fascinating from a financial/investing standpoint. I have an old Rolex that belonged to my dad. It is a 1954 Rolex. He was company commander in Korea and when his time was up his men bought the watch for him in the PX as a gift. It is NOT particularly valuable.....perhaps $1,000 to $1,500...... since it is not a desirable time period piece. BUT....many of the Rolex models from the 1960's and 1970's up to now sell for and are worth BIG BUCKS.

    I have learned some fascinating info from the various watch forums. The primary forums seem to be....."watchuseek"...and...."rolexforums".

    First I have come to realize that for most of the desirable models......Submariner, Daytona, GMT II, etc, etc, or any "average" NEW Rolex for that matter.....you are going to pay about $9,000 to $15,000 for a watch. Ok, who wants to blow that much money for a watch? That is a lot of money. BUT....as I read further I realized......that there is much more to how the finances work.

    First thing......lets take a $9,000 watch as an example. You will pay that amount to buy the watch as list price from a authorized dealer. So you are out $9,000. BUT....Rolex watches have an after dealer value. Like buying a house the watches have value as a resale item. So lets say you buy a Submariner at $9,000......that watch WILL always have a value on the resale market. So......a watch that you buy retail for $9,000 will perhaps have a value to sell to a dealer in used watches of $7,500. So.......you are spending $9,000.....but..... you have an asset that is worth $7,500. In other words.....if you net out that transaction.....you are not in the hole by $9,000....you are in the hole by $1,500....on paper.

    There is a strong system of dealers that buy used Rolex models from owners that operates somewhat like a stock market. Some even publish their "sell" and "buy" numbers daily for the different models.

    What makes the system even more fascinating to me reading about it....is the system of GREY MARKET DEALERS. I remember when buying something on the grey market used to mean that you were buying at a discount to the dealer price. WELL....not with these watches. The stainless steel models like the Submariner, Daytona, Gmt II, and others are produced in limited supply by Rolex and are sold NEW....ONLY...through their network of authorized dealers. So it is VERY difficult to find an AUTHORIZED DEALER that will have one in stock.......or.....will sell YOU one. The authorized dealers are REQUIRED to sell at list price.....they can not go over that price. Each dealer receives an annual allocation of watches that they will get over the year. Most dealers will get two shipments per month...presently.....of stock from Rolex. They will have customers lined up to buy those watches IMMEDIATELY. So they might get 15 watches of various models on January 15....and they will all be sold within a day to customers on the list that want those watches.

    So now there is limited NEW stock and limited authorized dealers and limited ability get a dealer to sell you a watch. SO......the GREY MARKET prices tend to be $5,000......$10,000......$15,000.....even $20,000 ABOVE the actual list price of the watch that you would pay at an authorized dealer.

    SO now the impact of this UPSIDE DOWN market is........if you can find a dealer that will sell you a particular watch......as soon as you walk out the door you can sell......FLIP...... that watch for.....lets say.....$10,000 more than you paid for it.

    As a result there are wait lists at all the authorized dealers.....and customers trying to get in with a dealer to get a watch at list price. There is also a VERY active market of FLIPPERS....that get lucky and happen to get a watch at a dealer than turn around and flip the watch to another buyer or to a grey market dealer.

    On the watch forums......there are many posts about how to develop a relationship with an authorized dealer to be able to get on their wait list or to get a watch at list price. So now on top of the financial issues....it is s whole world and system of "relationships" with a dealer to try to get a watch at LIST PRICE that will immediately be worth double that price when you walk out the door. Many of the more desirable models with list prices of $9,000 to $15,000....BUT...after market prices of double that.....have dealer wait lists of 2-3-4-10 years.....if you can even get on the list.

    Looking at the USED prices.....this is ALSO a fascinating market. Like buying a house....over time the used models that are mainstream....go up in value. So eventually you have someone that...lets say purchased a Submariner in 1968 for $280.....now if it is in original but used condition...that watch may have a market value of $25,000 to $50,000.

    A VERY fascinating world out there in assets and collectables like these watches. I am NOT a watch person or collector....but in EVERY category of collectable or hard asset it seems that the NUMBER ONE RULE is to buy PROVEN QUALITY for which there is an ACTUAL resale market and proven values. If you are interested in comics, baseball cards, antiques, art, watches.....anything....and you know what you are doing and research the field....you can do very well financially and at the same time get to enjoy whatever it is for your lifetime or until it is time to sell it and move on.

    BUT....in all this stuff.....obviously....you need to do your research, know the market, avoid FADS and HYPE and stick with long time proven value.
     
    Syynik and emmett kelly like this.
  19. oldmanram

    oldmanram Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2021
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    345
    Interesting write up about the Rolex watches , got me thinking of what could you buy retail and sell immediately and make money , not many things, one thing that came to mind was car buying, BUT , you would have to know cars, and know where to sell it. The only examples of that I am aware of is being "One of the FIRST" in line to get one of the first Corvettes, possibly Ferrari's , Porsche (if a new generation) , a ton of money to lay out and no guarantee's .
    The other thought that came to mind was that of Rolex watches, I wanted one sooo bad in my 20's, so I got a fake. "Because it was how I looked that mattered" Lasted about a year and died. It's funny looking back on things. Now I can afford 1 or 2 (for the wifey), but I have no desire.
    Now a Bigger Boat, that's a different story
     
  20. oldmanram

    oldmanram Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2021
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    345
    WXYZ, I re-read that article above , I see what they are saying now , funny how 7 hours of sleep helps your comprehension :)
     

Share This Page